Chronic cough + clear phlegm, runny nose/sneezing

[Hearsync]

Hello!

Thank you to Bliztkreig and Centralforce for the recent TCM assistance around removing dampness via Wen Dan Tang and changed diet. The problems of smelly farts, thigh pimples, dry eyes, and anal itching I was experiencing have DRASTICALLY improved, and am now almost back to 100%. Cannot thank you enough for the assistance.

However, since this change, I've been experiencing for around the past two to three months now a chronic cough that has started, which is wet, as I'm constantly coughing up clear phlegm. If I'm not coughing, then I'm constantly clearing my throat, and expectorating clear phlegm. There will also be periods of getting a random leaky/runny nose (where I will need to blow my nose), and sneezing. My lungs feel fine, aside from feeling there's phlegm it wants out. No trouble breathing. I'm not sick with a cold or anything, nor have I for a very long time.

I was reading this could potentially be due to lung phlegm-cold plus stomach & spleen deficiency, but may also be wind-cold, damp-phlegm, or possibly (although potentially less-likely) phlegm-heat. My arms and legs tend to get cold easily (more so my arms), and I typically prefer to be in the warmth. My energy levels are still very good, same with sleep and bowel movements. Should be getting more exercise (working on that) - exercising by jogging, walking, or doing yoga almost every day, but sometimes will go a few days without. Not eating or drinking anything cold - always cooking my food, limiting my grains and fruit - but even though I've been consuming cooked foods known to be good for removing dampness, I've read some are cooling foods (even if cooked), so I've started reducing those. For several weeks had eczema on my scalp - on the top right of my head, and on the back of my head just above my neck, but that's cleared out now this past week. The other thing that started weeks ago is a lesion on the tops of my hands - looks almost like subtle bruise, but I haven't injured myself. This has been around for weeks now and hasn't gone away, and is on both hands... on my left hand, covers the area from the middle of the back of my hand to my middle knuckle, around my pinky knuckle and back to the middle of the back of my hand. On my right hand it's on the back of my hand in that fatty area between the thumb and pointer finger.

If anyone wants a list of more detailed info on my past habits and ailments, details are here:
https://ancient-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=201206#p201206

I have access to order TCM herbs (but no access to see a TCM specialist), so any suggestions around herbal remedies or otherwise would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Blitzkreig [JG]]

...

If your spleen is not produced any more signs of dampness or weakness, then it is fine to introduce some cooling items. Veggies are cold, but don't generally have an inherent dampening property. This is easier on the spleen than a banana, which is both damp and cold.

Following this, grains are ok to eat, just moderate gluten grains. Otherwise, there isn't a huge risk of dampness, as the grains benefit the spleen and are generally neutral. I prefer brown rice, or "ancient grain"-style breads.

Looking at the nose, clear leaking fluid is associated with the lungs. This looks like wind-cold, but if this was a full-blown invasion, you would have chills, fatigue, and other cold-like symptoms. I think this is more a symptom of weakened lungs.

The lungs can fill with dampness, and I think this is what you are experiencing. This could've resulted from exposure to wind, or perhaps dampness leftover from when the spleen was weakened.

Source: Sacred Lotus Lung Patterns

-------------------------------

Does the eczema have any dampness-signs, such as pus or oozing? Otherwise, this appears more related to heat. Since you had dry eyes before, it is possible that this is due to blood deficiency.

http://www.tcmcentral.com/TCM/Acu%20Edu/tcmcentral.com_patterns_ezcema.pdf

As far as solutions go, this would involve expelling the dampness from the lungs with pungent foods. However, you don't want to exacerbate eczema if that is due to heat. Onions and garlic are very pungent, but ginger and greens onions or leaks are less so. Small amounts of these might be appropriate then, especially the garlic which will aid digestion through the stomach.

If the eczema is due to blood/yin-deficient-style heat, then neutral meats are appropriate, such as chicken. Any blood-building herbs would be appropriate as well. It just depends on what the eczema looks like, specifically. What is the status of it now?

 

[Hearsync]

...

Thanks for the reply! It is possible that there is still slight bits of dampness from the spleen. For the most part, the previous dampness problems have resolved (there is drastic improvement), but every once in a while I may have one day where I get an outbreak of smelly farts, get thigh/butt cheek pimples, and have an itchy anus - but then no problems for weeks. Perhaps I should do yet another round of Wen Dan Tang just to really make sure I 100% have the dampness out of my system.

I've certainly stopped eating bananas, and eating more veggies. Good to know the grains are okay - I have been for a while now not eating - or at least, drastically reduced any gluten containing grains... I do eat consistently organic steel cut oats for breakfast every morning, and then brown/wild/sticky rice, corn-flour based, quinoa, or millet with cooked veggies for lunch and dinner. Completely refraining from any wheat at all.

From what I've read, I was thinking wind-cold was the defining factor - but certainly is not full-blown. I do not, and have not at all had a fever/chills, headaches, body aches... none of that. Sometimes fatigue, but very minor. But definitely every day experiencing cough, sneezing, stuffy nose or runny nose with thin clear mucus. No itchy throat, though. Thin white tongue coating sounds about right.

I've been trying to think, if I've been exposed to actual cold wind blowing on me, but that the link you provided says air conditioning - that could be a factor. I've been sleeping a basement where it's cold - especially so when it's hot summer weather and the AC is running hard. But I've always enjoyed sleeping when it's colder. I enjoy my many blankets keeping me warm, and feeling the weight on me (I also have a weighted blanket). But maybe I should expose myself less to sleeping in the cold, and return to sleeping in a warmer room. However, I starting experiencing the lung problems before the AC got turned on in the house (although, has always been cooler in the basement I sleep in, as it's always the coldest room - whether the AC running in the summer, or is just the winter months.) At the same time, could also be as you've mentioned - weakened lungs, and leftover dampness. I should switch to a warmer room in the house and see if that helps.
From the Sacred Lotus page, it looks like it is both Invasion of Lungs by Wind Cold, and Damp-Phlegm Obstructing the Lungs (however, for the latter - my face is not pale or pasty looking, and symptoms are not worse when lying down). Symptoms typically are worst in the morning hours after waking, and sometimes also in the evening before going to bed (though, still consistent during and throughout the day).

In the descriptions of the URL you linked, the eczema sounds like both a mix of Blood Deficiency with Wind-Dryness, and also Heat Predominant Damp Heat... but could also be Damp Predominant Damp Heat (as there's not much description to that one). All three sound like what I have experienced - I've had mixed times where the eczema was acute in some areas, coming on rapidly, but also chronic, gradual spots in others that last longer (all located on the scalp, just in different areas of the scalp beneath the hair). The eczema is sometimes itchy, would flake when scratched in some areas, but wouldn't and would feel more wet in others - but normally was dry to the touch (until scratched), and if scratched, would then feel wet (not sure if that would be considered at pus or ooze?). Sometimes in the gradual/chronic areas would feel slightly wet to the touch without scratching, and would flake less, but have more of lichenoid thickening. The parts that were more acute/rapid would have more redness and cause minor bleeding/scabbing if scratched, and would flake more (making my hair look like I had dandruff around those areas).
The eczema has now mostly all disappeared. There's only a very tiny area I'm still experiencing on the scalp at the back of my head/above my neck (beneath my hair).

I have been eating a fair amount of onions, garlic and ginger for many weeks and months now, including greens onions when I can, and was for a while consistently eating leeks (just not for the past couple weeks, but need to get some more). I have been eating organic chicken from time to time to time, occasionally - at least once every other week (will eat it more frequently when I have it, and somewhat less frequently when I don't).

Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated, especially TCM herbal remedies that may be good to use in conjunction, or possibly even as a replacement of Wen Dan Tang (as I am able to order whole herbs for brewing teas). Adding , in case you also have any suggestions in this regard (greatly appreciated, as always)

Thank so much!

 

[Hearsync]

I don't think my above quoting worked in the way it should to notify a member, so seeing if the original way of quoting will work instead:

...

Also, found this:

http://www.tcmwindow.com/pharmacy/Prescriptions-for-Respiratory-System/Cough-due-to-wind-cold-treated-with-Chinese-herbal-prescription.shtml

Think this may be the best herbal remedy to try?

Effect
Relieve exterior syndrome, dissipate cold, relieve cough and resolve phlegm.

Indications
Cough due to wind-cold.

Ingredients
Folium Perillae (Zisuye) 144 g,
Radix Peucedani (Qianhu) 96 g,
Radix Platycodi (Jiegeng) 96 g,
Prunus armeniaca (Kuxingren) 72 g,
Herba Ephedrae (Mahuang) 96 g,
Radix Glycyrrhizae (Gancao) 72 g,
Citrus aurantium (Chenpi) 96 g,
Rhizoma Pinelliae (Banxia) 72 g,
Poria (Fuling) 96 g,
Zhi Qiao 96 g,
Radix Scutellariae (Huangqin) 96 g.

 

[Centralforce666]

When the spleen is weak, phlegm is produced from food.

The spleen creates phlegm and the lungs are the container of phlegm.

If there are feelings of cold, this would indicate a yang deficiency also.

The herbal formula for both spleen qi and yang deficiency with cold phlegm is Xiang Sha Liu Wei Di Huang Wan.

Apologies, I am not getting any notifications from threads and have not had a chance to be particularly active of late.

 

[Blitzkreig [JG]]

Also, found this:

http://www.tcmwindow.com/pharmacy/Prescriptions-for-Respiratory-System/Cough-due-to-wind-cold-treated-with-Chinese-herbal-prescription.shtml

Think this may be the best herbal remedy to try?

That seems like it would do ok. Phlegm is different than wind-cold, however, and as CentralForce mentioned, it is primarily a spleen issue.

The spleen is responsible for the failure to remove phlegm, resulting in the buildup primarily in the lungs, and also other areas. Therefore, attention should be placed here, as any lung phlegm should be temporary if the spleen itself was healthy.

What sort of body type do you have? This can be rhetorical if you do not wish to answer. A Kapha (earth-water) body type will be more prone to yang deficiency and sinus congestion than the others. If this is your body type, it would make sense to eat a diet that creates more fire and less earth in the body, thereby preventing dampness buildup.

 

[Hearsync]

When the spleen is weak, phlegm is produced from food.

The spleen creates phlegm and the lungs are the container of phlegm.

If there are feelings of cold, this would indicate a yang deficiency also.

The herbal formula for both spleen qi and yang deficiency with cold phlegm is Xiang Sha Liu Wei Di Huang Wan.

Apologies, I am not getting any notifications from threads and have not had a chance to be particularly active of late.

Thanks for the recommendation. Is there a Tang formula you can recommend, instead of Wan? Since I have access to whole herbs, and can brew my own tea (which from my understanding is more beneficial than taking raw/powder capsules). I'm not opposed to ordering capsules, but I do enjoy brewing tea Whatever is most helpful. If there is Liu Wei Di Huang Tang formula you can recommend with exact dosage of each. The closest I was able to find was this, but it only provides a wide range of the dosage of each herb: https://www.americandragon.com/Herb%20Formulas%20copy/LiuWeiDiHuangWan.html

I've recently been researching several herbs myself to see if I can find what might be a best fit, and was considering the possibilities of these (however, I'm not sure if it's safe to self-diagnose since I'm no specialist), but curious if any of these are okay to try, if needed:
- San Zi Yang Qin Tang
- Ling Gan Wu Wei Jiang Xin Tang
- Er Chen Tang (which I've read is the mother of Wen Dan Tang, the recent formula you recommended, which drastically helped with my previous conditions of smelly farts, thigh pimples, and anal itching)

I was also recently able to go see an acupuncturist; however, she was not very easy to deal with (too big of a language barrier, and seemed like she was not knowledgeable enough on problems like I've been experiencing - her clients are mostly those who experience back pain). She said my pulse was normal, and my tongue was pale. Said nothing about the spleen, was surprised when I mentioned dampness, yet never mentioned dampness again. She said my problem was blood deficiency. She put 3 patches on upper-center back, and two on my collar bones, and said, "if you feel heat from the patches, you have a problem and need acupuncture, and if you feel no heat, you have no problem." I've never heard of these patches, but did the acupuncture anyways (and shortly after starting, then felt the heat). Wasn't sure if this was some kind of scam, like the patches were going to feel hot whether I had a problem or not. Got needles put in my head, around my sinuses, along my forearms, along the sides of my legs, some down the middle of my torso, and the most painful ones which were the lung centers palm of the thumbs. Shortly after she asked me if I coughed up what was in my throat - like she was expecting that to be one-time cough and it's all gone... it seemed like she didn't understand I've been constantly coughing up phlegm. She put a heat lamp near the left side of my torso. After the treatment, she forgot a needle in me as I walked out (how lovely). And was unwilling to prescribe me any herbs (said it would take her 40min to find the right formula, and that acupuncture would help much faster and better than herbs). I had another appointment to go to, so I had to leave. Likely won't ever go back. It was my first acupuncture experience, and I really have no idea whether she was legit or not (aside from the fact that she had loads of good google reviews... who knows whether those were all real or not).

 

[Centralforce666]

The only difference between Wan and tang is the preparation.

Tang is decoction however spleen energy is usually prepared as a tea pill because the spleen benefits from dryness and the decoction can be a bit damp.

Liu Wei Di Huang Wan will make your problem worse and of the other three, only er Chen Wan is suitable however it will likely not have the full impact of Xiang Sha Liu Wei Jun Zi Tang.

 

[Centralforce666]

I also just realised I wrote the formula wrong in my original reply.

It is Xiang Sha Lui Jun Zi Tang

NOT

Xiang Sha Lui Di Huang wan

 

[Hearsync]

What sort of body type do you have? This can be rhetorical if you do not wish to answer. A Kapha (earth-water) body type will be more prone to yang deficiency and sinus congestion than the others. If this is your body type, it would make sense to eat a diet that creates more fire and less earth in the body, thereby preventing dampness buildup.

I am primarily Vata, with some Pitta. Any suggestions / recommendations you have around this would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Hearsync]

I also just realised I wrote the formula wrong in my original reply.

It is Xiang Sha Lui Jun Zi Tang

NOT

Xiang Sha Lui Di Huang wan

No problem! Thanks for the correction. The only place I could find that lists the amounts of each I would need to order, I found here:

https://tcmwiki.com/wiki/xiangsha-liujunzi-tang

Ren Shen - 10 g,
Bai Zhu - 9 g,
Fu Ling - 9 g,
Zhi Gan Cao - 6 g,
Chen Pi - 9 g,
Ban Xia - 9 g,
Mu Xiang - 6 g,
Sha Ren - 6 g.

Does this look right? It does not include sheng jiang (fresh ginger), but I always have fresh ginger, so I can just add that myself.

And I assume preparation instructions are as per normal? Low boil for 20min to make enough for two servings (drink twice a day) - then cover herbs in water and store in fridge, and re-use up to 4 times (4 days). Order a double batch to have enough herbs for one week (8 days)

Thanks so much!

 

[Centralforce666]

Your assessment is correct regarding amounts and preparation instructions.

There is no need to add Sheng Jiang, it doesn't apply to this formula.

 

[Shadowcat]

Hello!

Thank you to Bliztkreig and Centralforce for the recent TCM assistance around removing dampness via Wen Dan Tang and changed diet. The problems of smelly farts, thigh pimples, dry eyes, and anal itching I was experiencing have DRASTICALLY improved, and am now almost back to 100%. Cannot thank you enough for the assistance.

However, since this change, I've been experiencing for around the past two to three months now a chronic cough that has started, which is wet, as I'm constantly coughing up clear phlegm. If I'm not coughing, then I'm constantly clearing my throat, and expectorating clear phlegm. There will also be periods of getting a random leaky/runny nose (where I will need to blow my nose), and sneezing. My lungs feel fine, aside from feeling there's phlegm it wants out. No trouble breathing. I'm not sick with a cold or anything, nor have I for a very long time.

I was reading this could potentially be due to lung phlegm-cold plus stomach & spleen deficiency, but may also be wind-cold, damp-phlegm, or possibly (although potentially less-likely) phlegm-heat. My arms and legs tend to get cold easily (more so my arms), and I typically prefer to be in the warmth. My energy levels are still very good, same with sleep and bowel movements. Should be getting more exercise (working on that) - exercising by jogging, walking, or doing yoga almost every day, but sometimes will go a few days without. Not eating or drinking anything cold - always cooking my food, limiting my grains and fruit - but even though I've been consuming cooked foods known to be good for removing dampness, I've read some are cooling foods (even if cooked), so I've started reducing those. For several weeks had eczema on my scalp - on the top right of my head, and on the back of my head just above my neck, but that's cleared out now this past week. The other thing that started weeks ago is a lesion on the tops of my hands - looks almost like subtle bruise, but I haven't injured myself. This has been around for weeks now and hasn't gone away, and is on both hands... on my left hand, covers the area from the middle of the back of my hand to my middle knuckle, around my pinky knuckle and back to the middle of the back of my hand. On my right hand it's on the back of my hand in that fatty area between the thumb and pointer finger.

If anyone wants a list of more detailed info on my past habits and ailments, details are here:
https://ancient-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=201206#p201206

I have access to order TCM herbs (but no access to see a TCM specialist), so any suggestions around herbal remedies or otherwise would be greatly appreciated!

I have the same type of cough. wet, and always clearing my throat. when i cough its not because its near my lungs its to scratch an itch because it makes my throat itch. its so annoying especially because it desturbs the flow of chanting, especially in the mornings and evenings during surya and yoga. mine specifically is post nasal drip though, meaning fluid leaks down the throat from the back of the nasal cavity. this is an allergy apparently as this comes from the body making too much histamine. ive taken allegra and other nasal sprays and it has gone away. but when i would stop it would come back.

i am trying to find a permanent solution instead of a bandaid for the problem. i have been contemplating going to a naturopathic doctor for sometime now. im sitting here typing clearing my throat every 20 seconds as we speak...reeeee. :x

the job i have incurs alot of dust and smoke from welding and grinding so that is also a factor. i notice always on the days i work and come come and do yoga during the night especially during the inverted positions, my nostrils will inflame emmediately not allowing me to breathe properly during the asanas which messes up the whole session pretty much, not to mention alternate nostril breathing, and the right one is always stuffed up. its extremely frustrating.

i am also considering acupuncture.

 

[Shadowcat]

Also, found this:

http://www.tcmwindow.com/pharmacy/Prescriptions-for-Respiratory-System/Cough-due-to-wind-cold-treated-with-Chinese-herbal-prescription.shtml

Think this may be the best herbal remedy to try?

That seems like it would do ok. Phlegm is different than wind-cold, however, and as CentralForce mentioned, it is primarily a spleen issue.

The spleen is responsible for the failure to remove phlegm, resulting in the buildup primarily in the lungs, and also other areas. Therefore, attention should be placed here, as any lung phlegm should be temporary if the spleen itself was healthy.

What sort of body type do you have? This can be rhetorical if you do not wish to answer. A Kapha (earth-water) body type will be more prone to yang deficiency and sinus congestion than the others. If this is your body type, it would make sense to eat a diet that creates more fire and less earth in the body, thereby preventing dampness buildup.

this was insightful for me to read as well. and think it also applies to me as i am most dominant in water and earth in that order. are there resources i could look up that would help me determine what foods to include or exclude to change the elemental proportions within?

 

[Blitzkreig [JG]]

this was insightful for me to read as well. and think it also applies to me as i am most dominant in water and earth in that order. are there resources i could look up that would help me determine what foods to include or exclude to change the elemental proportions within?

Given what you say, you are likely kapha, but just keep in mind that not all astrological placements place the same weight onto physical constitution as others. Therefore, it is best to first analyze your physical makeup separate from any preconceived notions based on the astrology chart.

Firstly, you should categorize yourself. Here is a good start:
Ayurvedic Body Types

Note that it is possible to have a mixture of each category, but you should focus on which is predominant in you. In addition, certain imbalances are also related to certain doshas. For example: congestion is always too much kapha. Dryness is always related to too much vata, and so on. Pacifying that excess will correct the health issue.

From there, search for guidelines on both food and lifestyle activities that promote the change you want.
For kapha:
Kapha Pacifying Diet
Kapha Diet Chart

---------------------------

Following the above, I would recommend balancing your elements with ether energy, as this will push you in the right direction every time you do it. I do this with 4 or more breaths of ether daily, affirmed to have permanently balanced me in all ways.

Invoking Ether

Last, but not least, make sure you plan workings to more permanently fill in the gaps of your natal chart. The above ether energy is more of the composition of your soul and body on a daily basis, whereas the astrological chart reflects more permanent characteristics of you.

If you are high in water and earth, then you need more air and fire. You can do with squares of the associated planets, such as mars, the sun, and jupiter for fire. You can also use the runes as well: Sowilo, Uruz, Tiwaz for fire, and Ansuz, Mannaz for air. Kenaz seems like a mix.

While you can always specialize in certain areas, you should not leave yourself totally deficient in others as well. Even though certain Gods are related to specific jobs or elements, they still possess high levels of other characteristics, even those opposing their main ones.

 

[Shadowcat]

this was insightful for me to read as well. and think it also applies to me as i am most dominant in water and earth in that order. are there resources i could look up that would help me determine what foods to include or exclude to change the elemental proportions within?

Given what you say, you are likely kapha, but just keep in mind that not all astrological placements place the same weight onto physical constitution as others. Therefore, it is best to first analyze your physical makeup separate from any preconceived notions based on the astrology chart.

Firstly, you should categorize yourself. Here is a good start:
Ayurvedic Body Types

Note that it is possible to have a mixture of each category, but you should focus on which is predominant in you. In addition, certain imbalances are also related to certain doshas. For example: congestion is always too much kapha. Dryness is always related to too much vata, and so on. Pacifying that excess will correct the health issue.

From there, search for guidelines on both food and lifestyle activities that promote the change you want.
For kapha:
Kapha Pacifying Diet
Kapha Diet Chart

---------------------------

Following the above, I would recommend balancing your elements with ether energy, as this will push you in the right direction every time you do it. I do this with 4 or more breaths of ether daily, affirmed to have permanently balanced me in all ways.

Invoking Ether

Last, but not least, make sure you plan workings to more permanently fill in the gaps of your natal chart. The above ether energy is more of the composition of your soul and body on a daily basis, whereas the astrological chart reflects more permanent characteristics of you.

If you are high in water and earth, then you need more air and fire. You can do with squares of the associated planets, such as mars, the sun, and jupiter for fire. You can also use the runes as well: Sowilo, Uruz, Tiwaz for fire, and Ansuz, Mannaz for air. Kenaz seems like a mix.

While you can always specialize in certain areas, you should not leave yourself totally deficient in others as well. Even though certain Gods are related to specific jobs or elements, they still possess high levels of other characteristics, even those opposing their main ones.

Thank you DR Blitz for that awesome well of info! I am indeed VERY kapha :lol:. they told me i had PCOS and insulin resistance in my teen years but this was just a hormone imbalance. i also get the "itis" after i eat a heavy meal . i do love sweets x.x

i think aspects of pitta come in second. to be honest with you i thought for the longest time i was fire dominant but this is not the case. different sources have told me different things according to my natal chart. some say fire others say water. i have the mental and emotional characteristics of both.

interesting that you give that info about the squares because the specific ones you have just named are the ones i have done and been drawn to. the sun square however i messed up twice sadly and am now reattempting. i have tried invoking fire and air. since i have a short fuse with patience when it comes to stupid things as it is it wasnt the best idea at least for the full 7 breaths. invoking air has felt nice however and it helped me feel more detached in the ways that i needed to but it didnt last long. i will definately consider some specific workings for this in the future as well as invoking eather.

i have all these book marked now . my dad would be interested to looking at these as he is also very kapha