A question on Spiritual Death and Meaning in Life

[SilentFlame]

The meaning of existence is existence itself is very true. If one exists then one can do things that they were made for. We all have talents, thought processes, ideals, and desires unique to ourselves.

To some extent, people do have their own goals, deisres, etc. However, they are still ultimately replacable beings created by meaningless processes under this whole schema of things.

Other people may share the similar wishes to your own and you may have similar wishes that another has but ultimately the form of the wish is unique to ones own self. This uniqueness is what makes you, you. If you cease to exist then there will never be another "you". That has meaning on its own. By existing you can pursue these paths and if one becomes immortal one can pursue it for eternity. One is alive and one exists for their own sake and then possibly for the sake of their community and then eventually for the sake of their whole race. Does this seem boring to you? Does this seem meaningless? Then why don't you just die if living is meaningless? Why not just surrender yourself to the enemy? After all they are the ones who preach this pointless degenerating drivel into us.

That is not what I said in the first place, I repeatedly said that I think spiritual advancement and survival are all very important, clearly everyone should do them, these are good things undeniably. I get why the 'life is meaningless' argument can often be a problem when it causes negative results. I personally don't think life is meaningless, I am just saying there are big similarities i am noticing between the overall Materialist worldview and the worldview of this site, once you put aside materialism's lack of belief in free will and materialism's denial of spiritual phenomenon. At the end of the day all atheists know experientially that free will exists, the core of their worldview is belief in nihilism and spiritual death, and this is somewhat similar here in terms of the facts agreed upon by both groups.

The point of death is that it can breed new life or sustain another but other than that I see no other use of it. Animals, insects, and micro organisms feed on decaying flesh or corpses. Death serves meaning for them as its how they sustain themselves, to keep themselves alive. We kill plants and animals and use their death in order to sustain our lives. Our cells die, like white blood cells, in order to sustain our lives. I don't know how becoming immortal or advancing tech will be able to bring us to a point where such death will be unnecessary but for now death in this form is a necessity.

Clearly, there's always going to be some form of biological death of organisms, I don't disagree there, same with there being no use for spiritual death.

Spiritual Death is the ultimate end. It cause the "you" to disappear forever. There will never be another "you" ever again. Thus anything "you" could have done will never come to fruition, and any paths eternally closed off. To the person in question, this is something very undesirable. This is something one strives to avoid. This is something one shouldn't wish upon themselves or their loved ones but its something that the enemy constantly shoves in your face to wish for. After all "life is meaningless" right?

Just repeating what i said earlier, but no, I do not want to experience death, or think that it is somehow good if life is meaningless, which I don't really believe either.

Even if one reaches immortality, the struggle of life doesn't disappear. Immortality isn't the same as being invincible. It simply means that the body and soul are perfected to the point of being endlessly self sustainable. Thus one will never reach old age and die. That being said we have enemies, the jews and their cosmic allies. They are the enemies of us and Satan. Lets say hypothetically speaking that Our Gods didn't win. Well they would probably be destroyed by the enemy, their lives lost and existence terminated. Immortality and Godhood is just another checkpoint in advancement. Advancement is never ending and once one is immortal, neither is the struggle of life. Just as "death" gives meaning to life, life gives meaning to life as life is a constant struggle. There will always be something to do because stagnation is an affront to life. And if that bothers you, then don't bother being alive.

I mentioned the possibility of the enemies of the gods being defeated in an earlier post. What then? Of course, even if there were no enemies left to defeat I still think people should try to advance, so you are right to say there would be some 'struggle' at all times, as people try not to be lax or decay, but it would be of a very different type than now.

You speak of objective meaning to things but that in of itself is a paradox. There is meaning in things for us because we give it meaning. We place a value on it. This is subjective. Life among other things gives itself meaning but the meaning we give it is what we value. If let's say you decide that anything I wrote is worthless, that would mean to you my post was meaningless. But lets say someone else reads it and decides to take it to heart. To you its meaningless, to that person there's meaning. The same goes for life. You search for objective meaning but is that really the case? You are looking for value to living behind the excuse of "objective meaning" but would something objective hold any meaning to you? It wont because an objective meaning holds no personal value and in the end you would continue to make excuses about how living is meaningless. Want an objective meaning on life? Here's one: The meaning of existence is existence itself. Does it move your heart?

I don't understand why you think objective meaning can't be personal, it would make individuals placing a value on something have inherent value as they would be attempting to discover a true meaning it has for them in their own way. Making meaning fundamentally discoverable rather than fundamentally arbitrary. Even if I am ultimately simply subjectively trying to find a non-existent objective meaning which isn't there in reality, it is still satisfying for me as an experience, and from your standpoint of subjectivism you can't say that's wrong. And from the standpoint of whether it's healthy or not, it's not a problem as long as it doesn't interfere with my survival and health. To me individually, seeking objective meaning is more interesting than trying to see everything I do as fundamentally subjective, so I just don't see the dichotomy you are talking about.

I don't think it really matters whether or not it moves my heart much or anything, but the idea that existence's purpose is merely existence itself certainly isn't very moving to me.

 

[groryofsatan666]

The Soul is made up of things which come from the Aether, and this Aether is what the Universe is, which also has conscience. (I haven't yet understood that about it having conscience 100% yet, though, so you (and I) will have to read/re-read about it in other posts.)

Ether does not have consciousness where did you hear that?
Does fire water and air have consciousness?
The universe is ran by a natural law,it does not have any consciousness of its own nor free will.souls that comes into this world is what gives the universe meaning,the universe can not exist without a soul,so saying that a soul will dissipate while the universe remains is completely wrong,this is why you must exist,because without you the universe can not exist.
Soul does not come from ether,ether is a universal element,it does not have a consciousness of its own.soul comes from somewhere beyond what you call ether

As I said I'm not 100% certain about it, so I might be misremembering, but it has been in sermons/posts.

What is beyond Aether? The Universe has existed forever since before I came into being. The Aether manifests the Universe. You should go read the sermons and materials - unless there are some I have missed which says "the Soul cannot be destroyed", which, of course, is what "eternal punishment of torment and torture in Hell" is about, because "god" loves you so much.

In your quote then your saying that there is nothing beyond the universe,is this universe all their is?

 

[groryofsatan666]

The Soul is made up of things which come from the Aether, and this Aether is what the Universe is, which also has conscience. (I haven't yet understood that about it having conscience 100% yet, though, so you (and I) will have to read/re-read about it in other posts.)

Ether does not have consciousness where did you hear that?
Does fire water and air have consciousness?
The universe is ran by a natural law,it does not have any consciousness of its own nor free will.souls that comes into this world is what gives the universe meaning,the universe can not exist without a soul,so saying that a soul will dissipate while the universe remains is completely wrong,this is why you must exist,because without you the universe can not exist.
Soul does not come from ether,ether is a universal element,it does not have a consciousness of its own.soul comes from somewhere beyond what you call ether

As I said I'm not 100% certain about it, so I might be misremembering, but it has been in sermons/posts.

What is beyond Aether? The Universe has existed forever since before I came into being. The Aether manifests the Universe. You should go read the sermons and materials - unless there are some I have missed which says "the Soul cannot be destroyed", which, of course, is what "eternal punishment of torment and torture in Hell" is about, because "god" loves you so much.

Yes the universe is created from aether because aether contains all the four elements of creation,aether is the chi,the universal life force,but you need to know that there are planes higher than the physical plane so the aether is not the highest reality.aether is found in space and is said to move naturally with the universe,it is not a conscious being so it can not create something that has a conciousness.

 

[FancyMancy]

In your quote then your saying that there is nothing beyond the universe,is this universe all their is?

If you are referring to "mutliverses", then that is nonsense; the Universe is infinite and eternal. "Multiverse" is just another over-the-top, exaggerated-imagination-running-wild nonsense that us lowly laymen cannot possibly fathom nor question because we don't have the money nor other resources to do so, so we have to just accept "the authority" - that is (((authority))) - on the subject and what they say.

Ether does not have consciousness where did you hear that?
Does fire water and air have consciousness?
The universe is ran by a natural law,it does not have any consciousness of its own nor free will.souls that comes into this world is what gives the universe meaning,the universe can not exist without a soul,so saying that a soul will dissipate while the universe remains is completely wrong,this is why you must exist,because without you the universe can not exist.
Soul does not come from ether,ether is a universal element,it does not have a consciousness of its own.soul comes from somewhere beyond what you call ether

As I said I'm not 100% certain about it, so I might be misremembering, but it has been in sermons/posts.

What is beyond Aether? The Universe has existed forever since before I came into being. The Aether manifests the Universe. You should go read the sermons and materials - unless there are some I have missed which says "the Soul cannot be destroyed", which, of course, is what "eternal punishment of torment and torture in Hell" is about, because "god" loves you so much.

Yes the universe is created from aether because aether contains all the four elements of creation,aether is the chi,the universal life force,but you need to know that there are planes higher than the physical plane so the aether is not the highest reality.aether is found in space and is said to move naturally with the universe,it is not a conscious being so it can not create something that has a conciousness.

It makes me wonder why I thought I read a sermon saying it has conscience, and it makes me wonder how abiogenesis happened, then.

 

[Windstrider666]

To some extent, people do have their own goals, deisres, etc. However, they are still ultimately replacable beings created by meaningless processes under this whole schema of things.

The thing is, no one is "replaceable" in the sense that no one will be an exact replica of who you are and what you are. There will be people that can fulfill the same "role" but ultimately how the role is performed will be different whether vastly or minutely

At the end of the day all atheists know experientially that free will exists, the core of their worldview is belief in nihilism and spiritual death, and this is somewhat similar here in terms of the facts agreed upon by both groups.

No, in fact atheist dont believe in free will at all if they even believe we have a will. Atheists believe we are all chemical reactions in the brain and that its simply the brain having an experience. That death is ultimately the end and life has no meaning because there is nothing after death. Immortality is an impossibility and no one has higher purpose because we are all meat bags with electrical impulses. They dont believe in spiritual death because spirituality is pseudoscience make believe to them.

Difference between us and Atheist is literally everything. We dont have a worldview based on nihilism because thats a belief that living is meaningless. Life has meaning.

Clearly, there's always going to be some form of biological death of organisms, I don't disagree there, same with there being no use for spiritual death.

I never said there is no use for spiritual death. Without spiritual death this entire Universe would be filled with worthless deadbeat souls. Weaklings and degenerate disgusting beings that could exist forever just because and for no other reason. Spiritual Death serves purpose in that it gets rid of beings that don't advance. It also makes sure your enemies are gone forever.

I don't understand why you think objective meaning can't be personal, it would make individuals placing a value on something have inherent value as they would be attempting to discover a true meaning it has for them in their own way. Making meaning fundamentally discoverable rather than fundamentally arbitrary. Even if I am ultimately simply subjectively trying to find a non-existent objective meaning which isn't there in reality, it is still satisfying for me as an experience, and from your standpoint of subjectivism you can't say that's wrong. And from the standpoint of whether it's healthy or not, it's not a problem as long as it doesn't interfere with my survival and health. To me individually, seeking objective meaning is more interesting than trying to see everything I do as fundamentally subjective, so I just don't see the dichotomy you are talking about.

Objective: Gravity exists
Subjective: Gravity is nice

Objective meaning in of itself cant be personal because its something that exists regardless of what someone wants or wishes. Seeking/desiring an objective meaning can be personal. You want to satisfy your desire to find a meaning in life through an objective reason which is fine. The issue is I gave you an objective meaning to life, a pure fact. The meaning to existence is existence itself. What is bothering me is how you don't seem to like said meaning behind it which is inherently objective, which also satisfies your conditions of looking for an objective meaning to life.

Existence seeks to improve itself. Its why anything that goes against that leads into spiritual death. By seeking a more advanced form of existence you, and anyone else, will continue to exist. Hence why the magnum opus is the ultimate work as it perfects the being into the ultimate form of both spiritual and physical immortality thus gaining a permanent distance from Death. Existence itself is what gives it meaning.

 

[groryofsatan666]

In your quote then your saying that there is nothing beyond the universe,is this universe all their is?

If you are referring to "mutliverses", then that is nonsense; the Universe is infinite and eternal. "Multiverse" is just another over-the-top, exaggerated-imagination-running-wild nonsense that us lowly laymen cannot possibly fathom nor question because we don't have the money nor other resources to do so, so we have to just accept "the authority" - that is (((authority))) - on the subject and what they say.

As I said I'm not 100% certain about it, so I might be misremembering, but it has been in sermons/posts.

What is beyond Aether? The Universe has existed forever since before I came into being. The Aether manifests the Universe. You should go read the sermons and materials - unless there are some I have missed which says "the Soul cannot be destroyed", which, of course, is what "eternal punishment of torment and torture in Hell" is about, because "god" loves you so much.

Yes the universe is created from aether because aether contains all the four elements of creation,aether is the chi,the universal life force,but you need to know that there are planes higher than the physical plane so the aether is not the highest reality.aether is found in space and is said to move naturally with the universe,it is not a conscious being so it can not create something that has a conciousness.

It makes me wonder why I thought I read a sermon saying it has conscience, and it makes me wonder how abiogenesis happened, then.

About abiogenesis,OK let me break it down for you.
Soul is the true being,the true individual.we are soul so take note of that,am not going to say your soul because you are soul you don't own soul.
We have deferent layers of bodies each of them less densed and has more spirit and less matter than the order,in general we have five.the physical body the astral the casual,mental and etheric.these are energy bodies with time and space.
The etheric body is the energy body,out life force which contains our chakras and makes up our aura.the astral mental body is out mind body where all thoughts passes through from the mental plane,the casual body is our body of memory,some call it the lower mental body because it has to do with memory and it corresponds with the casual plane.
Our astral body is the body of emotions,all emotions come from the astral plane.and then the physical body which comes from this physical universe.
All this bodies houses soul which is the eternal spark,the Atman(pure consciousness) which is the true us.when a life is formed soul come down from the soul plane(atma lok) down and take each of these energy bodies until it reaches the physical plane were it then takes a physical body.
So then evolution and spiritual ascension begins until soul goes beyond this world of duality into higher worlds till it gains self and God realization
so to answer your question this is the aspect of what you are,you are not just a physical body or aether as some claim,you are soul and soul is beyond time space and matter.some say soul is energy,soul is not energy because energy does not have a consciousness,we control energy and energy does what ever it is told.it can not speak or see or has awareness.
But soul has awareness so it is not energy just pure conciousness.

 

[SilentFlame]

To some extent, people do have their own goals, deisres, etc. However, they are still ultimately replacable beings created by meaningless processes under this whole schema of things.

The thing is, no one is "replaceable" in the sense that no one will be an exact replica of who you are and what you are. There will be people that can fulfill the same "role" but ultimately how the role is performed will be different whether vastly or minutely

True, but at the end of the day, that is irrelevant, if said uniquness is without inherent meaning, then every individual is a replacable being in all aspects.

At the end of the day all atheists know experientially that free will exists, the core of their worldview is belief in nihilism and spiritual death, and this is somewhat similar here in terms of the facts agreed upon by both groups.

No, in fact atheist dont believe in free will at all if they even believe we have a will. Atheists believe we are all chemical reactions in the brain and that its simply the brain having an experience. That death is ultimately the end and life has no meaning because there is nothing after death. Immortality is an impossibility and no one has higher purpose because we are all meat bags with electrical impulses. They dont believe in spiritual death because spirituality is pseudoscience make believe to them.

Difference between us and Atheist is literally everything. We dont have a worldview based on nihilism because thats a belief that living is meaningless. Life has meaning.

What I meant by saying this was not that atheists believe in this intellectually. Intellectually they tell themselves that they have no freewill, and will argue to others that even their very consciousness is somehow an illusion produced by unconscious matter reacting as you said. But in reality, they still ultimately act with free will in their personal experiences. What I meant by saying that they believe in spiritual death is that while all Atheists tell themselves free will is an illusion, that these people ultimately are very afraid of the idea of spiritual death, that is, dying and ceasing to exist forever, which they think invariably happens to everyone the moment their body dies. So, on one layer they technically don't believe in spiritual death, since they think the 'individual' never even existed in the first place, but ultimately they still believe in this because they are very afraid of it.

Clearly, there's always going to be some form of biological death of organisms, I don't disagree there, same with there being no use for spiritual death.

I never said there is no use for spiritual death. Without spiritual death this entire Universe would be filled with worthless deadbeat souls. Weaklings and degenerate disgusting beings that could exist forever just because and for no other reason. Spiritual Death serves purpose in that it gets rid of beings that don't advance. It also makes sure your enemies are gone forever.

Even if spiritual death had some potential use in some cases, I doubt you would be saying the same thing you are now if, for example, someone you knew and cared about died was confirmed to have spiritually disappeared forever. This also would seem to be inevitably what would happen even to incredibly advanced and good beings, since there is a war going on between the Gods and the enemy. Inevitably, in a war, you are going to have many casualties in these battles, and I doubt the enemy is so unthorough as to leave those Gods they kill in existence where the others can then reincarnate them once more. So clearly, spiritual death causes quite an abundance of eternally unfixable issues, and if it didn't exist the universe would probably be better off.

I don't understand why you think objective meaning can't be personal, it would make individuals placing a value on something have inherent value as they would be attempting to discover a true meaning it has for them in their own way. Making meaning fundamentally discoverable rather than fundamentally arbitrary. Even if I am ultimately simply subjectively trying to find a non-existent objective meaning which isn't there in reality, it is still satisfying for me as an experience, and from your standpoint of subjectivism you can't say that's wrong. And from the standpoint of whether it's healthy or not, it's not a problem as long as it doesn't interfere with my survival and health. To me individually, seeking objective meaning is more interesting than trying to see everything I do as fundamentally subjective, so I just don't see the dichotomy you are talking about.

Objective: Gravity exists
Subjective: Gravity is nice

Objective meaning in of itself cant be personal because its something that exists regardless of what someone wants or wishes. Seeking/desiring an objective meaning can be personal. You want to satisfy your desire to find a meaning in life through an objective reason which is fine. The issue is I gave you an objective meaning to life, a pure fact. The meaning to existence is existence itself. What is bothering me is how you don't seem to like said meaning behind it which is inherently objective, which also satisfies your conditions of looking for an objective meaning to life.

Existence seeks to improve itself. Its why anything that goes against that leads into spiritual death. By seeking a more advanced form of existence you, and anyone else, will continue to exist. Hence why the magnum opus is the ultimate work as it perfects the being into the ultimate form of both spiritual and physical immortality thus gaining a permanent distance from Death. Existence itself is what gives it meaning.[/quote]

You are saying that it is the adaptive choice for all existing beings to become immortal and continue existing, but something being adaptive is not the same as it being objectively good. Not that i disagree with this adaptive choice of course. Ultimately you seem to be defining existence negatively as merely an escape from Death. At that point, if the Gods could at some point establish a sure state of peace in the universe with no enemies or natural calamities remaining as any possible threat, further levels of advancement would have no necessary effect in negating death. Instead, further advancement would increase the quality of life, making the overall state of being better. This is way just defining "Good" as 'making the adaptive choice' seems limited, as eventually many choices would be equally adaptive, whether mediocre in quality or excellent.

Example A:Extremely advanced God increases their advancement 100 fold, fully dedicating themselves to advancement and providing many good results, and will exist for the rest of eternity.
Example b:A God that is just as immortal as the last one does not do anywhere near as much to advance, only doing a moderate amount, but will regardless manage to continue existing for the rest of eternity.

In peacetime if no enemies remain you can have results like that, where superior advancement does nothing to make one choice more adaptive/survival oriented. Then in war time you can have more disturbing results:
Example C:Extremely advanced God does lots of advancement, but because peace is not established in the universe yet and risks remain, they are killed in battle and erased for all eternity due to the war, simply due to being an active part of the battles, unlike God B who did far less for their race but ultimately continued to exist.

This is the problem, if you simply define meaning as the evasion of death, then advancement doesn't hold value in itself, and you end up with disturbing results where if someone died, then their meaning was less than the one who lived even if they were clearly better in every way. After all, whether they advanced their race more or not, their race can do absolutely nothing to save them if they are forever erased from existence by the enemy, as I would imagine sometimes happens in the war unless the Gods have discovered a way to conduct battles remotely without risking their lives. Of course this is an example of how all wars are dysgenic, but the point is that meaning cannot be defined by simple survival alone, there have to be standards of morality where even death can be good if it's for a good cause. I'm not trying to straw man you as I know you are probably not trying to support 'individual survival is all that matters' when faced with these examples, but I think these are disturbing conclusions of the moral system you are using which you do not realize might emerge.

 

[groryofsatan666]

In your quote then your saying that there is nothing beyond the universe,is this universe all their is?

If you are referring to "mutliverses", then that is nonsense; the Universe is infinite and eternal. "Multiverse" is just another over-the-top, exaggerated-imagination-running-wild nonsense that us lowly laymen cannot possibly fathom nor question because we don't have the money nor other resources to do so, so we have to just accept "the authority" - that is (((authority))) - on the subject and what they say.

Yes the universe is created from aether because aether contains all the four elements of creation,aether is the chi,the universal life force,but you need to know that there are planes higher than the physical plane so the aether is not the highest reality.aether is found in space and is said to move naturally with the universe,it is not a conscious being so it can not create something that has a conciousness.

It makes me wonder why I thought I read a sermon saying it has conscience, and it makes me wonder how abiogenesis happened, then.

About abiogenesis,OK let me break it down for you.
Soul is the true being,the true individual.we are soul so take note of that,am not going to say your soul because you are soul you don't own soul.
We have deferent layers of bodies each of them less densed and has more spirit and less matter than the order,in general we have five.the physical body the astral the casual,mental and etheric.these are energy bodies with time and space.
The etheric body is the energy body,out life force which contains our chakras and makes up our aura.the astral mental body is out mind body where all thoughts passes through from the mental plane,the casual body is our body of memory,some call it the lower mental body because it has to do with memory and it corresponds with the casual plane.
Our astral body is the body of emotions,all emotions come from the astral plane.and then the physical body which comes from this physical universe.
All this bodies houses soul which is the eternal spark,the Atman(pure consciousness) which is the true us.when a life is formed soul come down from the soul plane(atma lok) down and take each of these energy bodies until it reaches the physical plane were it then takes a physical body.
So then evolution and spiritual ascension begins until soul goes beyond this world of duality into higher worlds till it gains self and God realization
so to answer your question this is the aspect of what you are,you are not just a physical body or aether as some claim,you are soul and soul is beyond time space and matter.some say soul is energy,soul is not energy because energy does not have a consciousness,we control energy and energy does what ever it is told.it can not speak or see or has awareness.
But soul has awareness so it is not energy just pure conciousness.

I hope what I said makes sense to you

 

[FancyMancy]

If you are referring to "mutliverses", then that is nonsense; the Universe is infinite and eternal. "Multiverse" is just another over-the-top, exaggerated-imagination-running-wild nonsense that us lowly laymen cannot possibly fathom nor question because we don't have the money nor other resources to do so, so we have to just accept "the authority" - that is (((authority))) - on the subject and what they say.


It makes me wonder why I thought I read a sermon saying it has conscience, and it makes me wonder how abiogenesis happened, then.

About abiogenesis,OK let me break it down for you.
Soul is the true being,the true individual.we are soul so take note of that,am not going to say your soul because you are soul you don't own soul.
We have deferent layers of bodies each of them less densed and has more spirit and less matter than the order,in general we have five.the physical body the astral the casual,mental and etheric.these are energy bodies with time and space.
The etheric body is the energy body,out life force which contains our chakras and makes up our aura.the astral mental body is out mind body where all thoughts passes through from the mental plane,the casual body is our body of memory,some call it the lower mental body because it has to do with memory and it corresponds with the casual plane.
Our astral body is the body of emotions,all emotions come from the astral plane.and then the physical body which comes from this physical universe.
All this bodies houses soul which is the eternal spark,the Atman(pure consciousness) which is the true us.when a life is formed soul come down from the soul plane(atma lok) down and take each of these energy bodies until it reaches the physical plane were it then takes a physical body.
So then evolution and spiritual ascension begins until soul goes beyond this world of duality into higher worlds till it gains self and God realization
so to answer your question this is the aspect of what you are,you are not just a physical body or aether as some claim,you are soul and soul is beyond time space and matter.some say soul is energy,soul is not energy because energy does not have a consciousness,we control energy and energy does what ever it is told.it can not speak or see or has awareness.
But soul has awareness so it is not energy just pure conciousness.

I hope what I said makes sense to you

Yeah, mostly. I don't know why it's so hard to take it in, lol. It is quite simple really.

 

[Windstrider666]

You are saying that it is the adaptive choice for all existing beings to become immortal and continue existing, but something being adaptive is not the same as it being objectively good. Not that i disagree with this adaptive choice of course. Ultimately you seem to be defining existence negatively as merely an escape from Death. At that point, if the Gods could at some point establish a sure state of peace in the universe with no enemies or natural calamities remaining as any possible threat, further levels of advancement would have no necessary effect in negating death. Instead, further advancement would increase the quality of life, making the overall state of being better. This is way just defining "Good" as 'making the adaptive choice' seems limited, as eventually many choices would be equally adaptive, whether mediocre in quality or excellent.

Example A:Extremely advanced God increases their advancement 100 fold, fully dedicating themselves to advancement and providing many good results, and will exist for the rest of eternity.
Example b:A God that is just as immortal as the last one does not do anywhere near as much to advance, only doing a moderate amount, but will regardless manage to continue existing for the rest of eternity.

In peacetime if no enemies remain you can have results like that, where superior advancement does nothing to make one choice more adaptive/survival oriented. Then in war time you can have more disturbing results:
Example C:Extremely advanced God does lots of advancement, but because peace is not established in the universe yet and risks remain, they are killed in battle and erased for all eternity due to the war, simply due to being an active part of the battles, unlike God B who did far less for their race but ultimately continued to exist.

This is the problem, if you simply define meaning as the evasion of death, then advancement doesn't hold value in itself, and you end up with disturbing results where if someone died, then their meaning was less than the one who lived even if they were clearly better in every way. After all, whether they advanced their race more or not, their race can do absolutely nothing to save them if they are forever erased from existence by the enemy, as I would imagine sometimes happens in the war unless the Gods have discovered a way to conduct battles remotely without risking their lives. Of course this is an example of how all wars are dysgenic, but the point is that meaning cannot be defined by simple survival alone, there have to be standards of morality where even death can be good if it's for a good cause. I'm not trying to straw man you as I know you are probably not trying to support 'individual survival is all that matters' when faced with these examples, but I think these are disturbing conclusions of the moral system you are using which you do not realize might emerge.

I think I understand what the issue is. It seems I may have misunderstood the entirety of what you have been trying to say but do please enlighten me if what im about to reply with is too another misunderstanding. From my point of view it seems the reason why you wish to find some sort of "objective meaning" to life is because Death seems to be too harsh for you. But you also seem to be aware of but unable to accept reality. If in the end one goes through spiritual death then yes at that point that existence is gone for good and thus become a meaningless "memory". If they leave behind nothing then all is lost and truly they are meaningless in the fullest of sense. If one amounted to nothing in life and then wastes away into oblivion, truly they are worthless and of no importance to anyone. If one falls due to war or whatever else then if its deserved then the memory of such beings will be honored to those left behind if any. Higher level warfare isn't simple guns and bullets but a fight with ones existence on the line. The winner survives and the losers perish for eternity.

Another thing, nature and the universe itself cares nothing to the beings living in it. It simply is and does whatever it does by design. If, and not to be a pessimist nor disrespectful, the Gods and in turn us ended up in a situation that inevitably lead to their oblivion then that is simply par for course. It simple another event that happens in this eternal universe. It simply is. There is no morality to it, there is no "meaning" to it. Just as their is no "meaning" to why gravity does what it does. It simply is.

You are trying to put morality into a universal truth, a universal law. Its as if the universe must adhere to your emotions and wishes but that is not the case. If someone close to me ends up on the path to oblivion, I will mourn but I will move on. Such is the way of this world. It is of no use to eternally feel distress over matters that cannot be changed by any means.

Inherently good? Inherently evil? Nothing of nature is so black and white. Saturn which is the number one thing everyone seems to complain about is not inherently evil. It has negative aspects to it as well as positive aspects to it. The only inherently "evil" are things that are an affront to nature and her laws. Life and Death are both natural parts of nature and neither are inherently good nor evil. Do not try and spin some sort of personal morality filled with emotion towards nature because nature doesn't care.

The only thing that cares about your existence is yourself and your racial family along with any allies you make. To joe shmo from planet burger? It matters nothing to them whether you exist or not.

At the end of the day without a deeper level of understanding gained through spiritual advancement any sort of philosophical debate on higher level concepts will end with nothing but sophism, ranting, and arguments going nowhere. If you believe the JoS's stance on life and death is Nihilism then I honestly don't know what to say as Spiritual Satanism is the absolute opposite of such ideologies. If you actually read anything that the clergy have written as well as the stuff in the JoS site that would be blatantly apparent.

 

[SilentFlame]

You are saying that it is the adaptive choice for all existing beings to become immortal and continue existing, but something being adaptive is not the same as it being objectively good. Not that i disagree with this adaptive choice of course. Ultimately you seem to be defining existence negatively as merely an escape from Death. At that point, if the Gods could at some point establish a sure state of peace in the universe with no enemies or natural calamities remaining as any possible threat, further levels of advancement would have no necessary effect in negating death. Instead, further advancement would increase the quality of life, making the overall state of being better. This is way just defining "Good" as 'making the adaptive choice' seems limited, as eventually many choices would be equally adaptive, whether mediocre in quality or excellent.

Example A:Extremely advanced God increases their advancement 100 fold, fully dedicating themselves to advancement and providing many good results, and will exist for the rest of eternity.
Example b:A God that is just as immortal as the last one does not do anywhere near as much to advance, only doing a moderate amount, but will regardless manage to continue existing for the rest of eternity.

In peacetime if no enemies remain you can have results like that, where superior advancement does nothing to make one choice more adaptive/survival oriented. Then in war time you can have more disturbing results:
Example C:Extremely advanced God does lots of advancement, but because peace is not established in the universe yet and risks remain, they are killed in battle and erased for all eternity due to the war, simply due to being an active part of the battles, unlike God B who did far less for their race but ultimately continued to exist.

This is the problem, if you simply define meaning as the evasion of death, then advancement doesn't hold value in itself, and you end up with disturbing results where if someone died, then their meaning was less than the one who lived even if they were clearly better in every way. After all, whether they advanced their race more or not, their race can do absolutely nothing to save them if they are forever erased from existence by the enemy, as I would imagine sometimes happens in the war unless the Gods have discovered a way to conduct battles remotely without risking their lives. Of course this is an example of how all wars are dysgenic, but the point is that meaning cannot be defined by simple survival alone, there have to be standards of morality where even death can be good if it's for a good cause. I'm not trying to straw man you as I know you are probably not trying to support 'individual survival is all that matters' when faced with these examples, but I think these are disturbing conclusions of the moral system you are using which you do not realize might emerge.

I think I understand what the issue is. It seems I may have misunderstood the entirety of what you have been trying to say but do please enlighten me if what im about to reply with is too another misunderstanding. From my point of view it seems the reason why you wish to find some sort of "objective meaning" to life is because Death seems to be too harsh for you. But you also seem to be aware of but unable to accept reality. If in the end one goes through spiritual death then yes at that point that existence is gone for good and thus become a meaningless "memory". If they leave behind nothing then all is lost and truly they are meaningless in the fullest of sense. If one amounted to nothing in life and then wastes away into oblivion, truly they are worthless and of no importance to anyone. If one falls due to war or whatever else then if its deserved then the memory of such beings will be honored to those left behind if any. Higher level warfare isn't simple guns and bullets but a fight with ones existence on the line. The winner survives and the losers perish for eternity.

Another thing, nature and the universe itself cares nothing to the beings living in it. It simply is and does whatever it does by design. If, and not to be a pessimist nor disrespectful, the Gods and in turn us ended up in a situation that inevitably lead to their oblivion then that is simply par for course. It simple another event that happens in this eternal universe. It simply is. There is no morality to it, there is no "meaning" to it. Just as their is no "meaning" to why gravity does what it does. It simply is.

You are trying to put morality into a universal truth, a universal law. Its as if the universe must adhere to your emotions and wishes but that is not the case. If someone close to me ends up on the path to oblivion, I will mourn but I will move on. Such is the way of this world. It is of no use to eternally feel distress over matters that cannot be changed by any means.

Inherently good? Inherently evil? Nothing of nature is so black and white. Saturn which is the number one thing everyone seems to complain about is not inherently evil. It has negative aspects to it as well as positive aspects to it. The only inherently "evil" are things that are an affront to nature and her laws. Life and Death are both natural parts of nature and neither are inherently good nor evil. Do not try and spin some sort of personal morality filled with emotion towards nature because nature doesn't care.

The only thing that cares about your existence is yourself and your racial family along with any allies you make. To joe shmo from planet burger? It matters nothing to them whether you exist or not.

At the end of the day without a deeper level of understanding gained through spiritual advancement any sort of philosophical debate on higher level concepts will end with nothing but sophism, ranting, and arguments going nowhere. If you believe the JoS's stance on life and death is Nihilism then I honestly don't know what to say as Spiritual Satanism is the absolute opposite of such ideologies. If you actually read anything that the clergy have written as well as the stuff in the JoS site that would be blatantly apparent.

In other words, you are saying that all that really matters in the end in the JoS worldview is individual existence, and there is no such thing as an objective higher moral in existence other than that which is an adaptive choice. Racial family and really all bonds with others in general simply serve as a means to an end for individual existence in this worldview as far as I can tell, rather than something that has value in itself. And the same goes with everything else.

I don't see how you disagree that the JoS worldview has key tenets that are the same as nihilism.. Nihilism is the view that there is no objective meaning to life. You agree with that, that all there really is in terms of meaning is making the adaptive choice for your own survival, and that's simply to avoid death, not to do anything with objective purpose. So how could the JoS worldview possibly be anything but nihilistic? Yes, it offers a solution of spiritual and physical immortality. However, that solution is simply an endless escape of the core truth of nihilism which is still accepted, that there is no purpose in life, nature is generally meaningless, and all that really awaits any individual is death if they fail. I don't see how you can disagree that this is the same fundamental worldview that nihilists have.

Lastly, as to what you have said about my argument about meaning, I realize that you see it as me trying to assert my own version of morality on reality, but I see it differently. I don't think it is meaningless to seek objective meaning, as if it exists, it is something that would grant life true value, rather than ultimately baseless values that would emerge if all that exists is individual decisions to grant value arbitrarily. The end result of such a worldview where all that objectively matters is survival, would be that all others become merely means to an end, and there is no value that can be placed higher than individual survival. All sorts of dishonorable and immoral things can suddenly flip to become morally Good if individual survival is all that matters. Society generally depends on placing survival of the group and some set of group values above the individual's life, but if survival is all that matters, then even the greatest crimes of betrayal can become Good as long as the individual doing them has a reasonable expectation that despite their great crime, they will still continue existing forever afterwards. You probably wouldn't use the word 'good', but nonetheless, I am sure you see what I am saying here. The end destination of this seems to be a Might Makes Right mentality where even the greatest atrocities like those the enemy perpetrates can be acceptable if they guarantee group/individual survival, and I simply can't agree with that. I'm not sure how much you even disagree with such a mentality, but you can try to outline your thoughts there on what even constitutes a 'wrong' action in moral terms. For example, any sort of betrayal, mass genocide, turning an enemy into a slave race, the underhanded tactics the enemy is using right now to win, etc. An action being 'wrong' in this context means that the action in question is not chosen due to its disagreeable nature even though it has a higher chance of guaranteeing group victory than another choice.